Baha'i Rants - Latest Comments in Don’t speak out for them, they’re not Baha’is

Re: Don’t speak out for them, they’re not Baha’is

Craig Parke — Wed, 29 Jul 2009 03:59:37 -0000

This is a quite thoughtful post. You make very good points and I commend you on it. You write:

"And while the rest of the world is flaying around in a state of upheaval and confusion we've been gifted with a divine model which we believe will ultimately best serve mankind. We are not mere spectators. Everytime we teach the faith in the spirit of unifying mankind, we ARE speaking out against every injustice and inhumanity in the world."

But is that actually true?

Amid Two World Wars, a Great Depression, the Cold War, Korea, Vietnam, the Civil Rights Movement, Gulf War I, Iraq, and Afghanistan just in the history of one country alone - the United States - and there are many other nations - the Baha'i Faith has repeatedly taken one step forward and ten thousand steps back generation after generation. For every person you teach and bring into the Faith, you negate ten thousand others with every mindless automaton vote for lifetime incumbency for a very tiny clique of people at the top who personally own and control the Baha'i Faith as their personal lifetime groupthink theorist experiment.

Shoghi Effendi said that one of the main functions of the Guardian of the Baha'is Faith was to ask a sitting Universal House of Justice to reconsider a decision they made that a Guardian deemed was against the Spirit of the Teachings of Baha'u'llah! So exactly WHO is supposed to perform that vital check and balance function now that there is and can never be a living Guardian in the Faith again ever? Who has the power and authority to ask them to reconsider anything?

Who?

The answer is no one.

So they can do whatever they want with no checks and balances whatsoever. Because of this, if they go off the rails and completely destroy the Faith, then they have failed all mankind and have not achieved one iota of anything whatsoever in speaking out and eventually stopping every injustice and inhumanity in the world. Zero. Nada. Zippo. How many thousands of years do you think it is going to take? I sadly say from hard experience that the Baha'is do not have the chops. Again, I am very sad to say this. But we are not players. It will take the current top down Baha'i system hundreds of thousands of years to achieve the simplest thing while the entire rest of the messy bottom up system of the world will easily accomplish in 100 years the things we are supposed to do. So I am putting the efforts I have left into the world itself directly. The Baha'is do not understand how to use spiritual multiplier forces in a society. Everyone else does for both good and evil. Your points are very well take, but I see no hope whatsoever of the Baha'i Faith ever achieving any kind of systemic competency. The rise of the internet could still be a factor. But so far I see no competence in how to use the Internet to progress the Teachings of Baha'u'llah via the current locked down Admin-o-Centric culture of the Faith. It is just not spiritual enough to have any effect on the course of events.

What has the Baha'i Faith done for veterans coming back from Iraq and Afghanistan and their families in the U.S. where there is real spiritual need? What has it done for the slain and the maimed sent to "do God's work". The answer is Zero. Nada. Zippo. the Faith is too soft. It is too weak. it is too insufferably Middle Class. It is made up of people who have never been anywhere in life and never seen anything from within the depth of their own souls. But that could all change. But so far I see little chance.

The Ruhi gambit is just the new scratching on the floor 15 feet from the kitty litter. It is just going through the motions and will not work. One step forward, ten thousand steps back. Millions will be born, live out their lives, and die while the Baha'is hold their endless meetings that produce nothing. Their prayers are not heard by any God. Ever. I honestly tried for decades. How can a community of people this individually and collectively impaired ever hope to be successful? At this point might it not be better to move on to find the people actually DOING the work of the New World Age and directly help THEM!

Re: Don’t speak out for them, they’re not Baha’is

Fred — Wed, 29 Jul 2009 02:11:27 -0000

It's fair to remember that political upheaval is nothing new to Iran. There were similar quests for freedom and consitutional reform even during the time of the Bab and Baha'u'llah, often bloody and violent. It could be argued that some of these movements, had they succeeded, would have brought an end to the persecution of the early Baha'is in Iran as well as bettered the lives of Iranians as a whole. But neither the Bab or Baha'u'llah ever instructed their followers to align themselves with any political movement. Where they wrong?

Even as late as the 1950s the Shah of Iran was deposed by a popular revolution which was entirely secular in nature. Should Baha'is have demonstrated their political support for the liberal and democratic government that deposed him? If yes, then should Baha'is have subsequently taken to the streets a second time when the same government was overthrown by a foreign backed coup which reinstated the shah? What should the level of our involvement of be and where do we draw the line? Is it even up to us to make these decisions? Well, I think not.

As for the words of pastor Niemoller, well, they've been 'coming' for the Baha'is for a long time! And finally, in the land of its birth, people ARE speaking out. And while the rest of the world is flaying around in a state of upheaval and confusion we've been gifted with a divine model which we believe will ultimately best serve mankind. We are not mere spectators. Everytime we teach the faith in the spirit of unifying mankind, we ARE speaking out against every injustice and inhumanity in the world.

Re: Don’t speak out for them, they’re not Baha’is

farhan — Sat, 04 Jul 2009 10:22:12 -0000

Baquia, as I see it, the task of Baha'is has been precisely outlined by Baha'u'llah Himself:

"It is incumbent upon every man of insight and understanding to strive to translate that which hath been written into reality and action." (Tab Baha’u’llah, Lawhi Maqsud)

When we translate His writings into action, nowhere are we asked to take sides in conflicting issues, but clearly to flee them:

"The distinguishing feature that marketh the preeminent character of this Supreme Revelation consisteth in that We have, on the one hand, blotted out from the pages of God's holy Book whatsoever hath been the cause of strife, of malice and mischief amongst the children of men, and have, on the other, laid down the essential prerequisites of concord, of understanding, of complete and enduring unity. Well is it with them that keep My statutes.

Time and again have We admonished Our beloved ones to avoid, nay to flee from, anything whatsoever from which the odor of mischief can be detected. The world is in great turmoil, and the minds of its people are in a state of utter confusion." (Gleanings XLIII)

Our whole mission being to allow the writings of God transform the character of mankind:

"And yet, is not the object of every Revelation to effect a transformation in the whole character of mankind, a transformation that shall manifest itself both outwardly and inwardly, that shall affect both its inner life and external conditions? For if the character of mankind be not changed, the futility of God's universal Manifestations would be apparent." (Iqan p 241)

You might feel that the Baha'is would gain popularity by taking sides in various issues, but this is not the mission with which Baha'u'llah has entrusted us.

Re: Don’t speak out for them, they’re not Baha’is

fubar — Fri, 03 Jul 2009 16:23:24 -0000

farhan,

thanks for the excellent quotes, which demonstrate the incoherence present in bahai scripture.

there are much more rational ways of seeing how social change processes operate.

in science, including social science, the best solution is usually the one that requires the least superstition and metaphysical fluff.

in that sense, progressive revelation is bogus, and emotive.

from the perspective of how meaning is constructed around the theme of revelation, the "truth statements" in bahai scripture can be "bracketed" and as such, give insight into the psychosocial dynamics of a declined culture.
gotta run.
have a nice day.

Re: Don’t speak out for them, they’re not Baha’is

farhan — Fri, 03 Jul 2009 15:50:28 -0000

Fubar wrote: did the concept of entropy arise from universal, liberated human perception (evolution), or from "revelation" caused by a "prophet" (access to special secret knowledge)?

Farhan : I would say concept of entropy is a universal law dating back to Aristotle and formulated in Carnot’s second law; it takes place spontaneously. God’s revelation is a source of negative entropy, just as a grain in the soil reverses the entropy that has led plants to decomposition. However, Baha’u’llah seems to claim that God’s revelation has accelerated this process:
“The world's equilibrium hath been upset through the vibrating influence of this most great, this new World Order. Mankind's ordered life hath been revolutionized through the agency of this unique, this wondrous System--the like of which mortal eyes have never witnessed.” (Kitab-i-Aqdas 2:182) or again:

“That God-born Force, irresistible in its sweeping power, incalculable in its potency, unpredictable in its course, mysterious in its workings, and awe-inspiring in its manifestations—a Force which, as the Bab has written, "vibrates within the innermost being of all created things," and which, according to Baha'u'llah, has through its "vibrating influence," "upset the equilibrium of the world and revolutionized its ordered life"—such a Force, acting even as a two-edged sword, is, under our very eyes, sundering, on the one hand, the age-old ties which for centuries have held together the fabric of civilized society, and is unloosing, on the other, the bonds that still fetter the infant and as yet unemancipated Faith of Baha'u'llah.” (Shoghi Effendi, ADJ, p 47)

Re: Don’t speak out for them, they’re not Baha’is

farhan — Fri, 03 Jul 2009 15:05:43 -0000

Fubar wrote: ...appear to "hijack" that history to somehow imply that an tiny, obscure group of bahais had some great influence, or played a significant role.

Yes, Fubar, liberation movements did bring down tyrannical societies (as Craig would put it, “doing God’s work”), but have never been able to produce a civilisation in their wake.

The purpose of God’s message is to provide the society that will replace the chaos they leave in their wake. The purpose of religion is not to overthrow tyrants but to provide a peaceful society to replace them, and for far reaching reasons I cannot detail here, the Baha’i pioneers did accomplish beautifully this work. In Gleanings CX Baha'u'llah defines this:

"The fundamental purpose animating the Faith of God and His Religion is to safeguard the interests and promote the unity of the human race, and to foster the spirit of love and fellowship amongst men. Suffer it not to become a source of dissension and discord, of hate and enmity. This is the straight Path, the fixed and immovable foundation. Whatsoever is raised on this foundation, the changes and chances of the world can never impair its strength, nor will the revolution of countless centuries undermine its structure. Our hope is that the world's religious leaders and the rulers thereof will unitedly arise for the reformation of this age and the rehabilitation of its fortunes."

Re: Don’t speak out for them, they’re not Baha’is

Craig Parke — Fri, 03 Jul 2009 14:59:56 -0000

Spot on post, fubar! Remarkable stuff. This is the EXACT ESSENCE of the main dysfunctional mind bending spiritual confusion of the last 2,000 years: "organized religions" of hysterical sociopaths repeatedly will NOT ever let anyone come up with "Atman is Brahman" for themselves! It is ALWAYS the same old, same old. Control freaks ALWAYS manifest themselves in this space. Baha'u'llah actually addresses this in the Kitab-I-Iqan! They repeatedly make a religious organization into some kind of suffocating Linus Security Blanket (LSB) in a frantic Super Mommy or Super Daddy psychological projection and have, therefore, hijacked zeitgeist energy over and over. The record is almost mathematical. It is Cosmically Archetypal. The Chief priests, Scribes, and Pharisees are some kind of galactic franchise it appears that just cannot be stopped. They are the McDonalds's Golden Arches of chained orthodox thought. Everything always gets dumbed down into some kind of straight jacketed insipid Baltimore Catechism. Now we have the McFaith as the new Happy Meal. All the spiritual nutrition for the World Age boiled down into a burgher, fries, and diet coke with a big fat straw.

People are now sick of this. The problem in the Baha'i Faith is that NOWHERE in the Writings does it say the Baha'i institutions have ANY say WHATSOEVER over the inner spiritual insights of anyone on Earth! That is not their authorized sphere of activity and purpose and it never was. That is not part and parcel of the collective sphere at all. They are supposed to be talking to other COLLECTIVE human structures on the planet like nations, governments, and other organizations. But THAT function requires actual guts, skill, courage, and intelligence and might get you killed yourself! It is much easier to bully individuals and think you are actually doing something useful as an organization at your lifetime incumbent pay grade. You aren't. Read Sen McGlinn's (gasp) forbidden book.

He clearly makes the case from Baha'u'llah's Writings and not someone's Pilgrim's Notes or pet theories that the machinery of the Faith (which any reasonable person would certainly agree could indeed be quite useful after the bloody 20th Century if it was put to the task of actually doing something REAL in life instead of dreaming up endless administrative "one step forward - ten thousand steps back" zero sum theories and plans for itself forever.)

Everything everybody needs to know is in the Writings and quite usefully the new books and insights being written by enlightened thinkers and explorers of consciousness concerning the new unleashed zeitgeist. How to organize around that is a matter to be decided locally everywhere in the world - not in the insane folly of top down.

All the Administrative Order has ever done in it's sorry censored history is trade on people's "hopium" generation after generation and re-arrange deck chairs on each new generational edition of the Titanic. It is still the metaphor that just keeps on giving!

The tragedy of so much opportunity lost so far through entrenched "inside-the-box" straight jacketed orthodox administrative stupidity in an ocean of human misery and suffering is beyond calculable.

Meanwhile the people out across the world that are learning Atman is Brahman their own way and in their own life from their own study and searching are going to kick everyone's ass including the Baha'i Faith. That is happening as they begin to communicate via the Internet and communities of free discussion and shared learning form. Many rank and file thinkers in the Baha'i Faith have now gone underground and many streams of thought will not surface now to the apparatchik collective for the next 300 years. Does the current impaired and dysfunctional AO lifetime incumbent narrow apparatus really think long time Baha'is who actually served in the trenches are really this dumb to passively accept the hijacking of many of the remarkable insights that do exist in the Faith?

Life and spiritual thought will go on out in the wasteland beyond the walled cities. They will just never hear about it in the top down hyper micro-managed Faith.

So it goes.

Meanwhile, everyone keep posting!

Re: Don’t speak out for them, they’re not Baha’is

fubar — Fri, 03 Jul 2009 14:48:51 -0000

Agreed.
The best french fries I ever ate were in a small french spa town in the south of france near the border with andorra/catalunya.

I would peronally always rather eat good chinese/thai food than french (sublime vs. perfection), but you are still right, the french system of cooking is the best.

Re: Don’t speak out for them, they’re not Baha’is

fubar — Fri, 03 Jul 2009 14:41:31 -0000

"Political" revolutionaries like Nelson Mandela and Gandhi were the reason that Apartheid fell, not obscure bahais.

Farhan,

It is odd that you fail to mention the overall contours of the political national liberation movements in Africa, and appear to "hijack" that history to somehow imply that an tiny, obscure group of bahais had some great influence, or played a significant role.

if you go to the following web site, click "search", and put in "baha", YOU WILL FIND NOTHING.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wik...

If there had never been one single bahai in africa, or the world, nothing different would have happened as far as the end of Apartheid is concerned.

google "south africa apartheid baha", and you will find the following strange bahai propaganda:

http://www.onecountry.org/e...

excerpt:
| Without the Church and religious institutions, I would never
| be here today," said President Mandela, explaining that it was
| Christian, Muslim, Hindu and Jewish religious groups that
| were instrumental in providing him and other young blacks
| with an education - and later in giving comfort to political
| prisoners and their families.

No mention of bahais supporting political revolutionaries, just other religions.

please note that the bahais LITERALLY "showed up for the parade" after the dirty work was sone by "political" revolutionaries (who bahais had been afraid to protect)!

The issue of political (non/)involvement is whitewashed:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wik...

There is actual evidence that the opposite was at least partly the case, and that bahai philosophy is "non political" for self-serving reasons:

In his later (bitter and disappointed) writing on global themes Shoghi Effendi condemned national liberation movements and praised the great imperial systems of christendom and islam as the hybrid model for future bahai civilization.

it is amazing how wrong you get most things. it is also how wrong bahai thinking in general is, so I guess you are at least consistent.

Re: Don’t speak out for them, they’re not Baha’is

farhan — Fri, 03 Jul 2009 14:33:26 -0000

Craig wrote: The Baha'is are in chains while everyone else is stealing our thunder and running with it as completely free thinkers and completely free peoples.

Craig, Shoghi Effendi's World Order of Baha'u'llah is the structure given to the embryo, and the plans that followed and continue are the application of The Tablets of the Divine Plan. Many of the well-meaning propositions I read are attempts at putting a beard on an embryo. Beautiful projects, but premature and impractical at the present situation of the Faith.

Also, I disagree with the dualism Baha'i vs non-Baha'i worlds; we are all in one world, God's message has been given to all humanity, even though those who discipline themselves in participating in the establishment of the structure, are helping creating the back-spine and nervous system of the future world order.

Re: Don’t speak out for them, they’re not Baha’is

fubar — Fri, 03 Jul 2009 13:33:07 -0000

Farhan,

the bahai "spiritual outlook" is a rehash of islamic esotericism, not much new except bahaullah was attempting to reconcile islamic-shia esotericism with the forces of modernity (european colonialism, parliamentary democracy, etc.).

spirituality existed long before civilizations came about and long before religion was invented by the so called "prophets".

the "structure" that bahai proposes is goofy, ill-defined, and will never work unless some other evolutionary paradigm shift occurs at a basic level of human existence FIRST, in which case, there would be no reason for a "bahai" structure anyway - all the work would have already be done by others.

Re: Don’t speak out for them, they’re not Baha’is

fubar — Fri, 03 Jul 2009 13:22:44 -0000

Ken Wilber (1996) "the unsettling thing about direct mystical experience is that it has a nasty habit of going straight from Spirit to you, thus bypassing the middleman, namely, the bishop, not to mention the middleman's collection plate. This is the same reason the oil companies do not like solar power..."

----

Farhan,

humans, and other sentient beings, have been sitting at the table/banquet (or bar-b-q pit) of transcendence for far longer than so called "prophets" (including bahaullah) have existed.

one of the seriously backward aspects of western religion (including bahai) is that the route to enlightenment has to be through prophets, priests, religious bureaucracies (systems), etc.

(please carefully consider Habermas' statement that "systems colonize lifeworld".)

history of the religious "middle man scam":

it is the main corrupting force that arises between "politics" and "religion".

http://www.shambhalasun.com...

excerpt:

[screen 3 of 6]

[Q] One of the most confusing things about being a practitioner of Asian mystical traditions is the fact that before the Enlightenment the West had a thousand year tradition of civilization based on a highly mystical religion, Christianity. And yet in S e x , Ecology, Spirituality you characterize this thousand year period as one that promised but did not deliver genuine transcendence. Why do you say that? How could a whole civilization miss the point for so long when it had expressions of the idea in Plato, the Corpus Hermeticum, Neoplatonism, mystical Christianity, and so on?

[A] Imagine if, the very day Buddha attained his enlightenment, he was taken out and hanged precisely because of his realization. and if any of his followers claimed to have the same realization, they were also hanged. Speaking for myself, I would find this something of a disincentive to practice.

But that's exactly what happened with Jesus of Nazareth. "Why do you stone me?" he asks at one point. "Is it for good deeds?" And the crowd responds, "No, it is because you, being a man, make yourself out to be God." The individual Atman is not allowed to realize that it is one with Brahman. "I and my Father are One"-among other complicated factors that realization got this gentleman crucified.
...
The reasons for this are involved, but the fact remains: as soon as any spiritual practitioner began to get too close to the realization that Atman and Brahman are one-that one's own mind is intrinsically one with primordial Spirit-then frighteningly severe repercussions usually followed.

Of course there were wonderful currents of Neoplatonic and other very high teachings operating in the background (and underground) in the West, but wherever the Church had political influence-and it dominated the Western scene for a thousand years-if you stepped over that line between Atman and Brahman, you were in very dangerous waters. St. John of the Cross and his friend St. Teresa of Avila stepped over the line, but couched their journeys in such careful and pious language they pulled it off, barely. Meister Eckhart stepped over the line, a little too boldly, and had his teachings officially condemned, which meant he wouldn't fry in hell but his words apparently would. Giordano Bruno stepped way over the line, and was burned at the stake. This is a typical pattern.

The early history of the Church was dominated by traveling "pneumatics," those in whom "spirit was alive." Their spirituality was based largely on direct experience, a type of Christ consciousness, we might suppose ("Let this consciousness be in you which was in Christ Jesus"). We might charitably say that the nirmanakaya physical body] of each pneumatic realized the dharmakaya [absolute body] of Christ via the sambhogakaya [body of bliss] of the transformative fire of the Holy Ghost-not to put too fine a point on it. But they were clearly alive to some very real, very direct experiences.

But over a several hundred year span, with the codification of the Canon and the Apostle's Creed, a series of necessary beliefs replaced actual experience. The Church slowly switched from the pneumatics to the ekklesia, the ecclesastic assembly of Christ, and the governor of the ekklesia was the local bishop, who possessed "right dogma," and not the pneumatic or prophet, who might possess spirit but couldn't be "controlled." The Church was no longer defined as the assembly of realizers but as the assembly of bishops.

With Tertullian the relationship becomes almost legal, and with Cyprian spirituality actually is bound to the legal office of the Church. You could become a priest merely by ordination, not by awakening. A priest was no longer holy (sanctus) if he was personally awakened or enlightened or sanctified, but if he held the office. Likewise, you could become "saved" not by waking up yourself, but merely by taking the legal sacraments. As Cyprian put it, "He who does not have the Church as Mother cannot have God as Father."

Well, that puts a damper on it, what? Salvation now belonged to the lawyers. And the lawyers said, basically, we will allow that one megadude became fully one with God, but that's it! No more of that pure Oneness crap.

[Q] But why?

[A] This part of it was simple, raw, political power. Because, you know, the unsettling thing about direct mystical experience is that it has a nasty habit of going straight from Spirit to you, thus bypassing the middleman, namely, the bishop, not to mention the middleman's collection plate. This is the same reason the oil companies do not like solar power, if you get my drift.

And so, anybody who had a direct pipeline to God was thus pronounced guilty not only of religious heresy, or the violation of the legal codes of the Church, for which you could have your heavenly soul eternally damned, but also of political treason, for which you could have your earthly body separated into several sections.

For all these reasons, the summum bonum of spiritual awareness-the supreme identity of Atman and Brahman, or ordinary mind and intrinsic spirit-was officially taboo in the West for a thousand years, more or less. All the wonderful currents that you mention, from Neoplatonism to Hermeticism, were definitely present but severely marginalized, to put it mildly. And thus the West produced an extraordinary number of subtle-level (or sambhogakaya) mystics, who only claimed that the soul and God can share a union; but very few causal (dharmakaya) and very few nondual (svabhavikakaya) mystics, who went further and claimed not just a union but a supreme identity of soul and God in pure Godhead, just that claim got you toasted.
...

Re: Don’t speak out for them, they’re not Baha’is

fubar — Fri, 03 Jul 2009 12:58:59 -0000

re: entropy and the "twin processes"

Farhan,

Ok, so the question is:

did the concept of entropy arise from universal, liberated human perception (evolution), or from "revelation" caused by a "prophet" (access to special secret knowledge)?

Do you see the basic problem with the confusion of origins, definitions and categories as attributed to "revelation" in the mainstream bahai mindset?

Do you see that the continuing dysfunctional aspects of the "secrecy" meme is toxic, and holds humanity back from spiritual liberation and social, economic and political freedom?

Outmoded metaphysical constructs (such as "progressive revelation") simply reinforce the very forces of oppressive backwardness that progressive people in Iran are struggling against right now.

Re: Don’t speak out for them, they’re not Baha’is

Craig Parke — Fri, 03 Jul 2009 12:21:26 -0000

It is indeed a very beautiful and majestic quote and a very useful way of seeing the flow of human political progress. This is EXACTLY what fubar is saying in his perceptive and timely posts!

Other systems of thought out there (like the Integralists and others) are actually DOING what Abdu'l-Baha says here. The Baha'is are NOT because they are in a top down completely dumbed down YEAR ZERO MENTALITY straight jacket cut off from all the other available powerful spiritual energies in the world. The Baha'is think they are the only game in town. Newsflash. They aren't! The Baha'is now dwell in a pit of groupthink. The Baha'is are in chains while everyone else is stealing our thunder and running with it as completely free thinkers and completely free peoples.

All religions were founded by INDIVIDUAL REFORMERS! Not by committees and people smoking groupthink propaganda. The story of every religion is individual thought defeating groupthink thought in some era of mass human incompetence and mass human unjustness! Why can't the sociopaths always running so called "religious organizations" every get the message of this repeated movie in human affairs that is repeated over and over?

Abdu'l-Baha's insightful quote is NOT being practiced by the Baha'i system so far EVER! The reason is because the people do not understand the spiritual teachings of their own now completely dumbed down religion.

I honestly don't think Shoghi Effendi was apparently ever familiar with this quote from his Grandfather. Apparently he did not get the memo and the teachings of his Great Grandfather have consequently been run completely into the ground by the people that are supposed to be following them.

But it doesn't really matter because everyone else who can speak freely in the world is building the liberated World Age of great human potential with contributions from the hearts and minds of EVERY freed soul on Earth. This daily progress is being made in greater and greater effectiveness. Witness all the books on Amazon while the Baha'is have to have bureaucratic review of every thought, every song, every idea where someone sets forth a new and better way for people to wipe their bottoms. All this whule the baha'is try to make every person on Earth wipe their bottoms in the exact same way at the same time every day in unison. Four sheets. Wipe up on Monday, Wednesday, and Friday. Wipe down on Tuesday, Thursday, and Saturday. On Sunday you have to guess. And if you guess wrong by an analysis of your toilet footage at the Ministry of Wiping you will be kicked out of the Faith by First Class mail.

Re: Don’t speak out for them, they’re not Baha’is

farhan — Fri, 03 Jul 2009 06:47:32 -0000

Barb, I found the reference on evolution of politics by Abdu'l-Baha (1875) in "The Secret of Divine Civilisation" p 44:

"The world of politics is like the world of man; he is seed at first, and then passes by degrees to the condition of embryo and foetus, acquiring a bone structure, being clothed with flesh, taking on his own special form, until at last he reaches the plane where he can befittingly fulfill the words: “the most excellent of Makers.” Just as this is a requirement of creation and is based on the universal Wisdom, the political world in the same way cannot instantaneously evolve from the nadir of defectiveness to the zenith of rightness and perfection. Rather, qualified individuals must strive by day and by night, using all those means which will conduce to progress, until the government and the people develop along every line from day to day and even from moment to moment.

When, through the Divine bestowals, three things appear on earth, this world of dust will come alive, and stand forth wondrously adorned and full of grace. These are first, the fruitful winds of spring; second, the welling plenty of spring clouds; and third, the heat of the bright sun. When, out of the endless bounty of God, these three have been vouchsafed, then slowly, by His leave, dry trees and branches turn fresh and green again, and array themselves with many kinds of blossoms and fruits. It is the same when the pure intentions and the justice of the ruler, the wisdom and consummate skill and statecraft of the governing authorities, and the determination and unstinted efforts of the people, are all combined; then day by day the effects of the advancement, of the far-reaching reforms, of the pride and prosperity of government and people alike, will become clearly manifest."

Re: Don’t speak out for them, they’re not Baha’is

fubar — Fri, 03 Jul 2009 02:06:02 -0000

Barb,

I am awed by your insights. Your decency and compassion are inspiring beyond words.

At the same time, I'm saddened with the memory of so many people like you that have struggled in a stifling bahai system, many of them demeaned, or viciously attacked, for trying to do the right thing.

Re: Don’t speak out for them, they’re not Baha’is

fubar — Fri, 03 Jul 2009 02:00:23 -0000

bahai polemicists are full of lies and distortions.

The changes that are occurring in the world are very poorly described, or predicted, by bahai.

bahai is an inferior way of seeing the world.

The conditions of modernity began to evolve in the 1700s, primarily at the "leading edge", in northern europe.

That was at least 50 to 75 years BEFORE bahai.

bahai was just copying stuff from europe.

there is no "progressive revelation".

what makes sense is to look at social change from an evolutionary perspective (or, at a more subtle level, Jean Gebser's "unfoldment").

what does not make sense is to look at social change from the prespective of outmoded, paradigm regressive metaphysics, which is primarily what bahai scripture contains.

haev a nice day!

Re: Don’t speak out for them, they’re not Baha’is

fubar — Fri, 03 Jul 2009 01:48:53 -0000

Farhan,

The structure of bahai rhetoric about "competition" is completely ot of balance, and does not reflect reality.

It exists simply to reinforce the paradigm regressive features of dysfunctional bahai culture.

The rest of the world is rapidly moving on, and adopting integral ideas about "harmonizing" achievement memes with "collectivist" (collaborative, cooperative) memes.

The world has had thousands of years of collectivist memes: tribal and medieval societies and a world of slavery.

Achievement memes, not some idiotic "revelation" by confused middle eastern mystics, brought about widespread numeracy/literacy, rational criticism, scientific culture, technology, industry,capitalism and democracy.

Machines (the main product of the "modernist" achievement meme) stopped slavery, not some so called "prophet".

In the context of backward, middle eastern culture, the changes that were becoming evident in the world were "interpreted" by some so called "prophets" through the lens of shia mysticism/esotericism.

That, in its most simple terms, is what bahai is: a reformist rehash of an outmoded paradigm.

It is just as much of a "middle man scam" as all of the other religions in the patriarchal judeo-christian-islamic tradition.

The world does not need another "bad" religion that maintains the memes of bygone slave civilizations.

Re: Don’t speak out for them, they’re not Baha’is

fubar — Fri, 03 Jul 2009 01:30:41 -0000

Farhan,

I'm assuming you are attempting some sort of economic analogy? If so, the concept, as vague as it is, is valid, but I seriously doubt that that is what is "really" intended by the institute process. I do agree that some sort of attempt at a paradigm shift was intended. It completely failed *in practice*. No "empowerment of grass roots" (or whatever jargon was used) happened. Instead, existing "pathological" bahai culture caused the reform meme to mutate back into the same ol', same ol', for predictable reasons: cowardice, dishonesty, hunger for power, lack of faith in the basic decency of human beings when dysfunctional organizations "get out of the way of the people".

I do remember (since the honesty was so uncharacteristic) one part of one early institute letter from the BWC that stated that existing national assembly practices were in need of major improvement. Unfortunately I have lost that reference. An old bahai friend of mine who has reformist tendencies spent several *years* trying to get the local/regional "institute" leadership to pay attention to that specific guidance, and became incredibly frustrated when no one would listen to the BWC! Eventually a few key traditionalists acknowleged the issue, but then a "new" form of institute process became preferred (Ruhi), and even the glacial pace of change that had come about slowed to a stop. With Ruhi, the lemmings took off in great haste for the edge of the cliff.

bahais such as scientists and scholars that publicly protested the appalling literalism, etc., of Ruhi were told that they weren't "real bahais".

So, as far as I can tell, anyone that "acts like an adult" and tells the truth, stands for principles, expresses any hint of dissent, criticism or nonconformance will be subject to marginalization, ignored, and so forth. The sad reality is that few bahai communities are willing to "get out of their comfort zones" and allow meaningful criticism.

Since you are from some kind of presumably "important" or "connected" bahai family (thus insularized from some of the ugly stuff), you may not have "seen" how things "really work".

Anyways, social science research confirms that, because of some evolutionary wiring for conformism (which had survival value), people frequently act significantly more "stupid" and "unethical" in groups than they would if making choices about controversial/risky issues individually.

Even if the BWC was actually trying to create an atmosphere at one early point in the institute process that was more tolerant of people calling for deep, unvarnished examination of problems in bahai culture and administration, I do not see it as having been sustained, at least not on a practical level. bahais generally have become more conformist, and more intolerant of nonconformism, criticism and dissent since the mid-90s and the "talisman" controversies (which started out being resashes of the "LA Study Group" and "Dialogue Magazine" controversies.)

Again, social science research shows that the kinds of people that have personality types that "question the status quo", are "innovators" or "entrepreneurs" are usually driven out of organizations such as bahai, which have become more conformist (politically correct) at the same time they have become (superficially) more "warm and fuzzy".

This is a widespread phenomena, bahai has the same problems as many other institutions and organizations.

Most important social critics/theorists (e.g., Habermas), have accepted the idea that there are structural, memetic, (psychosocial) causes for the "crisis of legitimization" that most institutions are currently suffering.

I see little or no interest from bahais in learning about how other people have started identifying and solving the problem. The bahais that do have such an interest risk marginalization (frequently intense) if they are seen as proposing solutions that have not been "approved" by the bahai leadership elites.

As such, there is a "vicious cycle" of dysfunctional organizational culture. It is ironic that an institute process was designed by a "top down" cluture that was intended to function from the "bottom up".

I think it is an invariable rule in organizational theory that "top down" proposals for how "bottom up" empowerment should work, are usually doomed.

The paradigm shift has to arise from what Habermas called "lifeworld", not "systems":

"lifeworld" is "bottom up".

"systems" are, in this case, "top down".

the dominant memetic fabric of bahai culture is "systems" oriented (administrative/institutional), and only tolerates "lifeworld" when "lifeworld" agrees to be "colonized by" "systems" (subsumed to the needs of "systems")

bahai culture, in its memetic structure, is not accepting of significant change. as such, it has begun to decay and become increasingly conformist, dysfunctional, defensive, insularized against the very "outside" knowledge and methods of organizational change that could bring about a significant internal paradigm shift.

bahai organizational culture is risk averse and hostile to "real" change.

"grass roots" efforts that (implicitly or explicitly) deeply brig into question existing modes and mindsets are subject to being "infected" by dysfunctional bahai memes, or undermined and attacked if resistant to assimilation.

I have previously posted many, varied examples of all this, which tragicially and negatively affected many outstanding and dedicated bahais that I knew for 30 years.

in some cases, the attacks by NSA members, Auxilliary Bored members, etc., on such "grass roots" activist bahais were so vicious and sustained that the UHJ had to fly in representatives to halt the attacks and remind bahais that they should stop acting like evil fascists.

so, what you are saying has almost nothing to do with the "real" manner in which bahai actually functions.

that you prevail in your erroneous views is an insult and deep offense to many decent, dedicated people that have been "trashed" by the evil influences in the bahai system.

you can't get away with attempting to impugn people's integrity and imply that the reason that they were trashed by the bahai system is because they are "spiritually inferior".

that tactic is simply an old way that the power elites in medieval slave cultures try to oppress the masses.

the entire reason that western culture "invented" democracy was to stop such backward and oppressive forms of social interaction.

unfortunately such oppressive "shadow" memes are still with humanity, and come to the surface all too frequently.

the integral movement has developed spiritual technologies that people can use to "heal" themselves of such shadows, and the dark fears that they grow out of:

http://www.shambhala.com/ht...

as I've previously written here, an independent, grass roots, bahai spiritual transformation movement along those lines began to form in califrnia in the early 1980s (around the time of the LA Study Group), and it was brutally marginalized and shut down by evil elements of bahai administration.

I do not think you have any idea of the attacks and real pain that decent people have experienced trying to do what you say the "institutue" process was designed to encourage.

it seems like you exist in a very strange little bubble, largely removed from reality.

the only thing that I can speculate on is that your persian tendency to want to avoid the ambarassment of having bahai shown to be a sham (need to "saving face"), completely overwhelmes any sense of basic human decency, honesty, or compassion that you might otherwise have for the people whose sacrifices have been thrown in the trash by an evil bahai system.

you have some seriously bad karma dude. where your ancestors slave owners?

have a nice day.

Re: Don’t speak out for them, they’re not Baha’is

pey — Thu, 02 Jul 2009 11:14:55 -0000

Cahtolics pay taxes too. Yet somehow they manage to also run orphanages and other charities. They are not specifically required to do so by their religion (except to care for the poor in a general way). The Bahaullah specifically asked that charities be established around the Mashriq, but Bahais and especially the AO are not complying (just making excuses as you are). Interesting that for someone who is so adamant ab out the laws of the Faith and who can or can not call themselves a Bahai, that YOU would be so leniant regarding these specific Writings about charities being built around the Mashriq.

Re: Don’t speak out for them, they’re not Baha’is

farhan — Thu, 02 Jul 2009 10:50:49 -0000

Pey wrote: God's plan doesn't involve opening up an orphanage or a home for the elderly

Pey, I pay taxes in France so that the needy are cared for, and as the retirement plans are collapsing, I am not sure if I will one day benefit from what I have contributed. I would have preferred paying this money to a Baha’i institution for the same purpose. The US community contributes to US taxes and to its NSA, and the NSA uses this money as best suits its plans decided by its elected institutions. As you know the foremost plan we are all engaged in is on the basis of the tablets of the Divine Plan. If you have suggestions concerning the use or misuse of funds in your country, you should refer to that community; I am in no position to judge.

Re: Don’t speak out for them, they’re not Baha’is

pey — Thu, 02 Jul 2009 09:18:57 -0000

Oh I see. So God's plan is for a nice building to be maintained for NSA members to meet in a cozy atmoshpere and eat good meals served by the staff at National. But God's plan doesn't involve opening up an orphanage or a home for the elderly. Ok, gotta thanks Farhan.

Re: Don’t speak out for them, they’re not Baha’is

farhan — Thu, 02 Jul 2009 02:41:19 -0000

Fubar wrote: The institute process is simply the latest form of dumbed-down bureaucratic reinvention used by a highly dysfunctional bahai leadership system to protect itself from reform.

Fubar, the institute process is all about enabling those who wish to become serve humanity to become producers instead of remaining consumers. People who can offer services instead of waiting for someone to help them. IOW, acting as adults instead of acting as helpless babies:
This was what Kennedy referred to when he said see what you can do for your country, instead of expecting your country to do things for you. Baha’is are called upon to take initiatives and engage in the real world instead of passively sitting around expecting someone to make a moving speech for them. The exact opposite of an up-down process, even though those who wish to serve have to learn how to do so by integrating their efforts into team work and thought-out plans, instead of doing it according to their own whims.

Re: Don’t speak out for them, they’re not Baha’is

Grover — Thu, 02 Jul 2009 02:33:37 -0000

Ooooh, Farhan is angry!

Re: Don’t speak out for them, they’re not Baha’is

Grover — Thu, 02 Jul 2009 02:31:59 -0000

Oh no! I've bruised your ego! The mighty Farhan comes plummeting to earth. You what they say about those who seek to rise above their station...